And I still want to learn All The Things, so clearly the dinosaurs didn't damage me that much

[pktechgirlbackup]

One of Punished By Rewards points is correct but a bit of a straw man- Rewards don't teach anything to anyone, they just change behavior while the reward is in place. Well, yeah. When my dad promised us dinosaur toys if we behaved through all of the grocery shopping, I don't think he thought we were learning a life long lesson about the value of not screaming for every sugary treat in sight. I think he was tired and stressed out and assessed that he didn't have the energy to deal with a meltdown, and the dinosaur toys did that. Compared to giving in to a meltdown, or being strong though the meltdown but yelling at us the rest of the day, bribery was a pretty winning strategy. Kohn's insistence that parents and teachers should, at all times, be willing to put infinite energy into teaching the correct long term strategy, no matter what the short term costs, seem like the kind of nonsense you get from nonparents- or, since he in fact has two kids, the kind of nonsense you get from breadwinner parents who refer to parenting their own children as babysitting.

This is even more ridiculous when you apply it in classrooms. Teachers only have so much time and energy. If you have an assignment where the value comes in two parts- the actual learning, and the learning to learn and be self motivated and all that jazz- any one student will probably benefit more from getting 100% of both of those, even if it slows him down. But the time it takes to teach that one kid to *want* to do the assignment comes at the expense of the traditional learning of the other 29, and it may well work out that everyone is better off if they only get 70% of the self motivation. Or it maybe not. That's an empirical question that I think he should be lauded for raising but questioned for assuming the answer lay all the way on one side.

It does, however, raise questions about merit pay. If you pay for the sort of things that can be created in students via bribes, you'll get more bribing and less instilling a lifelong love of learning. He also brings up evidence that when students are rewarded for teaching other students based on the junior students test scores, the senior student gets a lot angrier and teaching suffers. Those are both valid concerns. On the other hand, paying the same amount whether you actually teach students or spend all day watching film strips does not seem to be working out for us.

Comments

[squid314.livejournal.com]

I'm not even sure the point is correct. Sometimes rewards can overcome resistance or establish a habit which then continues after the rewards are removed.

For anecdotal evidence: I used to sleep with the lights on; my parents offered me some toys if I could sleep with the lights out for a month straight. By the time I got the toys, I was less scared, sleeping in the dark seemed normal to me, and I continued to do so.

[pktechgirl.livejournal.com]

Kohn actually brings up that specific example, and suggests that bribing kids becomes a cheat that saves parents from solving the actual problem. I'm torn. On one hand, that can happen, and it can mask issues like giving them sugar right before bed. On the other hand, kids do lots of things for stupid reasons that they will cling to furiously but will let go of without pain if you distract them for long enough. This is one of many things in which he adopts a blanket don't-do-it policy when I'd prefer a discussion on when and when not to do something.

[scythe-of-time.livejournal.com]

But.. But.. if the kid no longer sleeps with the lights on following a period where they proved they could sleep with the lights off, then how is rewarding them for their behavior with a minor toy (promised from the beginning, of course) a shortcut? The kid put the work in, and the toy is a minor reward. I don't get why he jumps on that example.

[pktechgirl.livejournal.com]

How is it not a shortcut? It doesn't address the reason the kid wants the light on, it just bribes him into not bothering you about it(see the scariest story (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/02/scariest-story.html)). Doesn't mean squid314 is wrong about using it as a tool for getting over a hump, but it is a shortcut.

Also, are you suggesting that it's less of a bribe/shortcut/somehow otherwise better if the gift is promised ahead of time, rather than a surprise?

[scythe-of-time.livejournal.com]

Also, are you suggesting that it's less of a bribe/shortcut/somehow otherwise better if the gift is promised ahead of time, rather than a surprise?

No, no, I was just clarifying that in case the point of "but the kid knew it was coming, so it could be argued that he was doing it soley for the reward," which was probably the case, but ... I don't even know. I guess my issue with it is that I don't see what Kohn's problem is with using rewards is if they work. Sometimes you just can't reason with young kids about things like lights being on (e.g. checking the bed frequently and getting them water and any manner of things to put off their going to sleep due to a fear of monsters of any such thing).

[pktechgirl.livejournal.com]

To take a different example, chores. If what you want is to get the table set, paying your kid to do it is fine. if what you want is to teach them about contributing to their family and pulling their weight, it's not gonna work.

The lack of distinction between ongoing things like chores and getting kids over the hump things like lights is one of the problems with the book.

[scythe-of-time.livejournal.com]

Okay. That makes sense.

[scythe-of-time.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure how to tackle this, except to say that I bribe Nolan all the time, and Aaron doesn't (and is shocked that I would do so).

Kohn sounds like the kind of guy that measures character (and the development of such) with a point system. Obviously bribes are negative points, only given by a parent or a teacher who has a compromised character, and is passing on their traits to their charges.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this.